Donald M. Spalding

Print Friendly, PDF & EmailPrint Friendly

Donald M. Spalding Oral History Interview

Interviewer and Date: Stephen R. Mark, Crater Lake National Park Historian

Interview Location and Date: At Donald Spalding’s residence in Trinidad, California, April 2, 1991

Transcription: Transcribed by Darci Desharnais Gomolski, 1993-94

Biographical Summary: Don Spalding was superintendent at Crater Lake National Park from 1967 to 1970. While superintendent Mr. Spalding also served as key man in the planning effort that took place prior to Redwood National Park’s establishment like his predecessor, Len Volz. Once Redwood came into being, he further demonstrated his versatility by setting up the Klamath Falls Group Office in1969.

Preliminary arrangements for this interview were greatly augmented by Ron Mastrogiuseppe, at that time forest ecologist for Redwood National Park. He put me in touch with Bill Donati, another park employee who had worked at Crater Lake from 1968 to 1970 as a district ranger. The three of us met at Mr. Spalding’s residence and participated during the interview.

Materials Associated with this interview on file at the Dick Brown library at Crater Lake National Park’s Steel Visitor Center: taped interview 412191. copies of newspaper articles, personnel list, and notes from interview with Donati. Slide taken at time of interview. Most of this interview is captured on the following transcription. Some explanatory field notes and a separate interview with Mr. Donati are in park files.

To the reader:

Don Spalding was superintendent at Crater Lake National Park from 1967 to 1970. While superintendent Mr. Spalding also served as key man in the planning effort that took place prior to Redwood National Park’s establishment like his predecessor, Len Volz. Once Redwood came into being, he further demonstrated his versatility by setting up the Klamath Falls Group Office in1969.

Preliminary arrangements for this interview were greatly augmented by Ron Mastrogiuseppe, at that time forest ecologist for Redwood National Park. He put me in touch with Bill Donati, another park employee who had worked at Crater Lake from 1968 to 1970 as a district ranger. The three of us met at Mr. Spalding’s residence and participated during the interview.

Most of this interview is captured on the following transcription. Some explanatory field notes and a separate interview with Mr. Donati are in park files.

Stephen R. Mark

(Crater Lake National Park Historian)

January 1994

This is an oral history interview given on April 2nd, 1991 in Trinidad, California. I am interviewing Don Spalding today at his residence. With me are Ron Mastroqiuseppe and Bill Donati of Redwood National Park, both formerly of Crater Lake. We will begin the interview by asking Don some of the question I sent him several weeks ago, and then broaden our discussion when we get into Crater Lake a little bit further. We’ll also discuss the Redwoods Studies that were conducted from the Medford Office in the late 1960’s.

Bold type, Steve Mark Indented bold, Ron Mastrogiuseppe

Plain type, Don Spalding Indented plain, Bill Donati

Where did you grow up and how did your educational background lead you into the National Park Service?

I grew up in Seattle, Washington, first generation American from a family that came from Canada, Scotland, and Ireland. I had a little different background then some of us I guess. In WWII, I was a pilot and after that was over, I went back to school. I had just two years of high school when the war started. Although I went back to college, I never really did complete high school. I went on and got a bachelor of science degree in biology. Went to two school: the University of Arizona, and what is called Northern Arizona University at Flagstaff. I’ve done graduate work at the University of Montana and American University in Washington, D.C.

What were your graduate classes?

Public administration.

Okay.

As to what brought me into the Park Service, I was an employee of several newspapers one of which was the Republican Gazette in Phoenix. Somebody suggested that I write an article on one of the National Parks. I wasn’t a writer at the time and I still don’t consider myself one. There were a lot of park areas in Arizona. So I started writing and all of a sudden I was writing about all of them. These articles were picked up by the Associated Press and United Press all over the country. I had a call from one of the Superintendents, Tom Whitecraft at Petrified Forest with a seasonal job offer. Meantime, I actually quite the newspaper and started back to college, this was in ’45.

Oh, in ‘’45?

1945. They wanted me to continue the articles, so I did in finished that series and started my college education. I went to work for Petrified Forest as a seasonal naturalist, SP-4, I think it was in those days, sub-professional.

Oh, really?

Sub-professional. All the permanent interpreters were quote “professional” in those days. Of course that classification has fallen by the wayside.

You were a sub-professional because it was a seasonal?

Right, that was the way it was structured, very interesting. I did a lot of work in geology and taxonomic work at Petrified Forest.

So there was a certain part of your work time that was visitor contact, but also in a museum doing some…?

It was all visitor contact in those days in the museum and then any research you did was on your own in the evenings or weekends, whenever you would get time.

But they encouraged research?

Oh, yes they encouraged it. I would get credit for it at the college level. So it was a federal job much like what you do here with HSU today, good program. We had, as a side line, a very interesting group in that particular college at that time. One professor, Dr. Allen, was a friend of Dr. Bryant at Grand Canyon, so we all had entered into the National Park Service from several different directions. Russ Dickenson was one – our former Director, Paul Spangle, Myron Sutton. The last time I ran into Paul Spangle he was one of the bosses in the Service Center in Denver. Had spent ten years over in the mid-east, Jordan, I believe, doing studies. Myron Sutton was quite an author. Those folks, I believe, are all retired now.

Did you go to Grand Canyon during the time you were a seasonal at Petrified Forest?

Oh yes, did geology field work at the Grand Canyon.

Was Bryant around? Was he very visible as far as contact with people doing research?

Oh yes, and he came to Flagstaff for monthly meetings with the Northern Arizona University and of course we were all plugged into that. It was a very interesting set up, but there was nothing structured about it or ever written about it. It was just that this particular professor was interested in the Park Service. She took trips to these various places as well. After I had been doing the writing, she of course became interested in getting me involved with this group of fellas. As it turned out, quite a few of them went into the Park Service.

That kind of got me into the Park Service in an around about way; two years there as a seasonal.

As a seasonal?

Right.

Did you continue on as seasonal or did you go on into business?

I went back into the newspaper business for a year. Again, I worked for the same newspaper five different times, whenever I ran out of money in college I would go back to Phoenix and work on the newspaper. In fact, the last time I saw them they wanted me to come back again. Gosh, a great bunch of people. Funny, you get involved with the newspaper like you do the Park Service; it’s a very demanding and fascinating business. I was waiting on the list, I took the first exam after WW II, to get into the Park Service, and that was an interesting experience. All the temporary park employees, superintendents, rangers, naturalists were hired during the war had to take that exam. Because you see the exam was closed in ’39. So everybody had to take it in order; I don’t know, thirteen hundred, something like that, and some of them didn’t make it.

I know it took awhile for some of the temporaries to be either get conversions or get hired on after the war?

Right, quite awhile.

Was that something you were concerned with at the time you were a seasonal or was newspaper work probably more alluring?

Mine was just a clean approach to take the test, I don’t even remember the name of the exam now – they have changed it so many times.

It’s got a new title apparently.

Right, so we took that and you would wait two to three years to be called up, depending upon your rating and all that stuff, you know. It took about two years, I worked for the paper for a year and then I decided I would go into government work. I went to work for the Bureau of Reclamation. I had a permanent assignment there as a surveyor, working on the All American Canal in California.

That would have been in about 1940..?

About 1950. Then I was offered a job at Coulee Dam, a permanent position with the Park Service so I transferred from Reclamation to Park Service.

And that would have been in ’51?

’51 or ’52, I not sure somewhere right along in there.

So, about the time Wirth became Director? He was Director at the time.

It was after the episode at Dinosaur with Drury?

I was in at that time, ‘cause I remember we couldn’t say boo to the newspaper or delegations. It was a Secretarial decision [Oscar Chapman] and thou shalt not question the Secretary.

[Ron] It was a gag order.

Yeah, very specific on that.

That hasn’t been brought out before that there was a gag order.

I don’t recall whether it was a written order. I think it was, if I remember. But heck, I was a lowly beginning Park Ranger in those days and I had a lots to do, without being worried about the Secretary. But I did actually meet the guy. He came out to Coulee Dam and dedicated part of what was called the equalizing reservoir. He was the one that said no, the Park Service couldn’t have it.

Oscar Chapman?

Yes, so you run into those folks. As a seasonal at Petrified Forest I met Director Drury, which was very interesting because later on at the Redwoods. He was a very prominent person and we became real good friends. He remembered the Dinosaur experiences. It was still very important to him even just a couple years before he passed away. He felt very strongly that Dinosaur was the trigger. His problem, as he explained it to me, was that he didn’t like recreation areas. He didn’t think there was any place in the National Park Service for that. Of course I came in through the recreation areas, and was involved with several. So I took the other side and we had some great discussions.

I can imagine.

[Ron] Was he a very easy man to talk with?

Just as easy as sitting here. We used to have dinner quite frequently. I believe he was President of the Save the Redwood League at that time.

I think till his death.

[Ron] What do you recall, Don, about Drury’s feelings concerning the Redwood National Park encompassing the State Parks.

If I recall correctly, he was not in favor of it.

[Ron] I see.

That’s my recollections, he felt that the state could do a good job, and they have done a reasonably good job.

[Ron] Yes.

That’s my recollections of it, I know he was not a strong supporter.

[Ron] Yes. Did you meet his brother Aubrey?

No, not involved with the park.

[Ron] I see.

Most of my work was with the Sierra Club, they were the predominate actors as well. The Save the Redwoods League was in a different level of operation.

[Ron] I see.

You were at Coulee in ’52?

Yes.

Did that appointment last for several years and then you were transferred?

Yes, I was there probably about three years. I requested a transfer to a hot dry climate. They sent me to Death Valley. It was the most delightful experience. I spent three years there.

So, you would have gone to Death Valley in ’50…?

About ’54.

’54.

And stayed there till ’58, going through the ranger series. I was a District Ranger, Ranger and District Ranger.

So, you started as a GS-?

5.

5 at Coulee?

Right.

Were you promoted during the time you were at Coulee or did you transfer?

No, not at Coulee after I moved to Death Valley. I ended up writing those PD’s [position descriptions] and I still remember them. I had to do them for everybody, and that was the problem. We were 5s, there were three of us that were 5s, three District Rangers were 5s. We wrote the PDs and we got 6s. A year later we rewrote the PDs and got 7s, in the three districts. Then I transferred to Mount Rushmore as Chief Ranger.

Did Coulee and Death Valley have Superintendents in the sense we have now?

Yes, very small graded Superintendents.

I know there was a period in the ‘40’s when they had Custodians, and I don’t know when the transition occurred.

I don’t know, Valley had a Custodian-type back when Colonel White was in charge of Sequoia. But when that change occurred there, was a good twenty years before I arrived at any rate. Superintendents had a lot of clout and still do, but not nearly what they did have.

At the time you left Death Valley, were you District Ranger and you became Chief Ranger at the time you left for Rushmore?

I was Chief Ranger at Mount Rushmore, promoted as I transferred there. I was there, without looking it up, whether it was ’60 or ’61. They offered me a planning job in the Omaha regional office. Went in there as a 9 and in a year I was an 11. That was an interesting transition from the ranger series to the planning series. Spent most of the time in Wyoming and Colorado investigating BLM lands.

As possible recreation areas?

Yes, for BLM. It was one of those arrangements— I was a park employee all the time—there was a reimbursement.

Was that because this was before the Outdoor Recreation Resources Review Commission Report?

The ORRRC Report came out and established, what do they call that outfit?

The BOR.

BOR, Bureau of Outdoor Recreation. That is when another transition occurred that I had nothing to do with; you wonder sometimes why you go a certain direction. Sometimes you have a choice and sometimes you don’t. There were about ten of us in the Planning Division at the time, and half of us were transferred to BOR, unbeknownst to us. Very interesting, I was on a field trip doing the first preliminary study at, oh gosh, what is that Recreation Area—Crow Agency?

Oh, it is in Montana?

I was doing the study and we stayed in Billings and the park gang always stayed at one hotel, there was only one hotel there. My boss showed up and so did the Regional Director, Howard Baker. We were all close friends, golf buddies, and all that type of stuff whenever we got together, which was pretty rare. You know mission ’66 and all those things we were pretty busy, a lot of planning for new areas – studies. He says, “Oh, by the way Don, you got transferred to BOR.” I said, “Oh, when did that happen?” He said last Monday. He said, that he took it upon himself to transfer me to Superintendent of an area in Iowa. I said what area do we have in Iowa? So that’s how I ended up as Superintendent of Effigy Mounds. I never had any ambition or interest per se in being a park superintendent. I was fascinated with what I was doing and that is just the way it went. I had been Acting Superintendent quite a bit at Mount Rushmore.

It was simply Howard Baker took it on himself to do that?

That was the way it was done. Obviously, it was arranged with Director Wirth, cause he called up and congratulated me and all that. I had kind of a hard time being very enthusiastic, I had never seen the place, I had over heard of it. But it was great, it was fun, a good place to learn.

[Ron] When you did a lot of your planning studies, were you with a planning team or were you alone?

Occasionally there would be two of us. When I got promoted again to Supervisory Planner, then there was someone to help drive and keep track of where you were. It’s very involved, you know Ron, we had some of the most marvelous maps that I’ve ever seen, great big county maps, right down to out houses on them. Somebody had to keep track of where you were going, especially when you were tracking down BLM parcels, forty acres or whatever. There was no team effort.

Not in the modern sense, where we send out these Harpers Ferry or DSC teams?

No, that came later. As far as I know, at least in the Midwest Region, there were about ten or twelve planners working in our Division. Chet Brooks was there, but the rest of them went to BOR. Chet, at the same time I went there, went to Bighorn as Superintendent, great historian that guy, did you ever run into him?

No, I haven’t.

He is the wildest story teller you ever heard in your life. A tremendous historian, he retired at Rocky, I think he is living right around there somewhere. If you ever run into him, stop and talk to him. We had historians on that planning group, we had interpreters, I was the only management—type, as the ranger series was considered management in those days; I guess it is really not today. We had city planners from Chicago on the staff, a real interesting mix. So you had a good review of the product, but it was pretty much individual stuff. That Wild Rivers study came along; being the old planner, they decided I would go on the Wild Rivers study for one summer.

This was about 1964?

About that.

A prelude to the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act?

Somewhere along in there, I’m not too sure when it was.

Okay.

So I spent the summer surveying rivers in ten Midwestern states. There we had a team, two parks fellas on it. One was with BOR, since BOR was the lead agency on this and Evan Haynes was the Director of our group. There were about five us from Fish and Wildlife, Forest Service, BLM, Park Service and BOR. A member of each team and there were ten teams across the United State and we were to check every river and go at it.

Where there any problems on the teams with people representing that many different agencies?

The only problem we ever had was between the two parks employees. Former park employees that had very strong opinions on what was the best. I held for St. Croix, which is the one we ended up with. We could only pick one river that was the tough part. In the ten Midwestern states we ended up with St. Croix, which is a marvelous place.

So, one river out of those ten states?

Yeah.

Did each region wind up picking up a river?

No, we did; the team did.

The team did?

The regions were not involved once we started this. It was strictly a BOR team approach. Very interesting work, we just hired an airplane and took off. That was the first reconnaissance, you’d fly to Missouri, you may split up, or it may just be one of you or maybe the whole bunch for the preliminary reconnaissance. Then we would go in and check it by car and if it was floatable, we would get a boat, canoe, whatever it was, and then write all the reports, of course. Had to be a report on every river.

Whether it was negative or positive?

Yeah, that was fun.

Would those reports have been BOR reports, in their files or would the agencies all get copies?

Yes; I don’t know about the rest of them, but I kept copies. I assume they weren’t of any value to the area so they went to the region. Harry Robinson was chief of the division at that time. Chet Brown had moved from Washington and was in charge of the Park Planning Division. Then I ended up going to Washington while I was still Superintendent of Effigy Mounds.

Now, was that what year?

Don’t ask me that, I’m not sure, I think ’63.

Again that was one of the things that our Regional Director [Howard Baker], a marvelous guy, by far the sharpest Regional Director I have ever met and he taught you things, like don’t call me I’ll call you. If you have a question think it over and think if it’s worthy of consideration, then you call me.

[Bill] We had a lot of questions taken care of that way.

You work predominately with the staff, one of the staff folks, Associate Regional Director, came out and said did you ever think about going to Washington on the Departmental Program? I said I never heard of it. Well, come January I heard I was selected and I was going. So I was there for six months. And I just came back to Effigy Mounds and packed my clothes. Before I left Washington I was transferred to Platte National Park in Oklahoma. That’s where the political education started, really.

[Ron] Oh really, at Platte?

Well, a little before that, I was key man in the state of Iowa. So I had to meet Governor Hughes. He became a Senator, of course. When we went to Washington we were right in with the Directorship and that is who we worked with. When you were in the Park Service you worked at the Associate Director level. You didn’t work down at the other levels of the operation, so you really learned how these folks function. When I arrived there Hartzog was installed, but that was not my first exposure to him. He was Superintendent of Jefferson National Expansion Memorial during the building of the arch. We were friends at that time, but not close friends, I’ve never considered myself a close friend to Hartzog, although we were friends and good friends.

I know the opening chapter in his book is devoted to that period where he is in St. Louis?

Right, he did a marvelous job there. When I went down to Washington he was just installed. In fact, I went to his installation about the first week I was there, taking over for Connie [Wirth] which was a real shock for everybody in the Service, you know.

You were surprised when he announced his retirement?

He didn’t announce his retirement, he was removed by the Secretary, Stuart Udall. The same as when George was subsequently removed. Weaves a funny web, my work in the newspaper business in Phoenix, because I knew the Udall family quite well. Judge Udall was head of the Supreme Court, because I used to do the legal publications. So, I knew some of the Udalls, those things help. At any rate, I was selected after that to go to Platte and I was a GS/ 12 at that time. So things were moving along at fairly a rapid pace.

Was Platte considered an important assignment?

I know the Secretary thought it was important, because Carl Albert was majority leader in the House of Representatives and that was his district. He had been brought up as a boy, traveled across the plains and camped at Platte Park. He felt damn strong about it, but at the same time the Bureau of Reclamation was building a dam which was just downstream form Platte called Arbuckle Dam. I had been there all of five days and three men came out to see me and asked me what I was going to do about this. One was Secretary Udall and the other was Carl Albert and Director Hartzog. I didn’t even know where the roads were, but I got them down there. We sat down at the motel that night—a lot of business was done in motels at that level. George didn’t say anything and the Secretary did the talking. He said, “ I want you to take over the Arbuckle Recreation Area.” I said, “Well, that’s an interesting name.” Yeah, he says eventually, we are going to change that to Chickasaw. Carl was nodding and he said, “That is exactly what I want, Don.” George said, “Don, you heard him, do it.” So, there we were and we did it. About three years, roughly, it took to accomplish it. Put it all together and the mater plan, and you know, the stuff you go through and the re-staffing. Did all the underground work, the boat ramps, sewage and water—all the stuff that had to be done prior to the time the lake filled. This was a Bureau of Reclamation project, which was also under Stewart Udall; this thing was greased solid all the way. But the Regional Director was Don Beard and Dan didn’t like recreation areas at all. So there was kind of a difficulty, but we had to do it, so we did it anyway.

So that was Southwest Region now rather than Midwest?

Yes, the Southwest.

Would that have been because of his experience with some of the other recreation areas in the region?

I don’t know. Dan was so mad about it that he would be just livid whenever we would get together. First of all, he didn’t like the political pressure. That was when politics were the name of the game, as it is today. It was literally crammed down his throat; he said, “I don’t have any money and I don’t have any personnel and I’m not going to give you any.” Well, I had to have staff, I had to have money, had to issue contracts and so what could I do? I had this down in writing, so I just called George up and I said, “Hey, we have a problem in Santa Fe.” He said, “You don’t have any problem in Santa Fe. What do you need?” I had all that I needed, because with that pressure you don’t fool around with, so we just did it. That brings us up to almost Crater Lake and Redwoods. I guess that would be about ’67.

Did you get any inkling before you were to move to Crater Lake that you were going?

No.

It was a transfer done at the Washington level?

I had completed the project, the visitor center, the dam, the lake, the whole smear, everything but water. We didn’t have any water. Jerry, gosh can’t remember his name, Bureau of Reclamation Chief says, that their best engineering estimate was that it would take a hundred years to fill the lake. I said you got to be kidding, what are we building this thing for? At any rate, that was their estimate. We had our stuff all done and so Mr. Hartzog and I were talking and he said did you get that finished? And I said yep. He said send me a letter. So, I sent him a letter outlining what we had done. The conclusion at that bottom was that we expect this thing to be filled in a hundred years. Oh boy, you know he wasn’t known for patience, neither am I. He said, “I have a problem out in the Redwoods and I want you to go out there.”

The transfer to Crater Lake was really because of the Redwood situation and it just gave you a base?

I assume that. Hartzog had already selected Lenny Volz to come into Washington. I assumed this happened, at any rate, the vacancy occurred and he wanted someone right now. We were just happened to be having a regional conference and he came to the conference and that is when he told me about it. He gave quite specific instructions. You will set up a Medford office and that is where you will work. You will run the park, when you have time. I’m sending you a new Chief Ranger. To save time, there is always a chain of events at that level. They were closing Flaming Gorge, so Paul needed a job. He said you have a Chief Ranger named Paul Larson. I said okay. He said, “By the way, I want a new master plan for Crater Lake in your spare time.”

There was one done in ’64, as I remember, so he wanted a new one just two years down the line?

He said to live up in that snow was asinine. Get the damn thing down where it belongs, out on the west side. I said okay. So you just do it, you know, that is what you are paid to do. If the Director gives you directions, then you better use them. Beside I didn’t have any problem with it, to me it made sense.

Did you have an idea for a physical move of headquarters like to Prospect or Union Creek?

“Get the houses and office out of there,” in just about those words. This whole conversation with him on this move to Redwoods and Crater Lake and the planning and all this stuff took may be fifteen minutes and that was it. He was catching a plane and I was catching a plane and that was it. I didn’t see him for a couple of years after that. We conversed you know, but by then we were going to another region. By that time, John Rutter was Regional Director. He was the key man for the Redwoods and North Cascades, but was under Hartzog’s thumb all the time. Of course John would get one me for Redwoods. I was the only guy working Redwoods. They had six or seven working North Cascades, they had a different problem up there. So, I spent most of my time down here as Bill [Donati] knows and certainly Paul knew. Paul did a good job up there.

Was Redwood a different situation?

I don’t know. I think it was geographic more than any thing. I never felt burdened, the only thing I felt bad about was the Superintendent at Crater Lake was the official title and that’s your duty assignment and all the rest of it, I was never able to do the job that should have been done at Crater Lake.

Largely because you just physically weren’t in the park?

I would come down here Sunday night, and I would work usually through Friday morning and get home Friday night. I’d spend Saturday and half of Sunday in the park, change my laundry and all that stuff, say hello to my wife and family, by then I was gone again. That went on until 1968, so there was no time.

You were at Redwood most of the time?

That is the way it worked, but that was the priority that was established. Paul carried the load there and I think he did a good job. I had a little problem with campgrounds, cause Hartzog has an idea a minute and expects it done the next minute. Of course, the chain of command kind of bottles things up. But we had a little problem with that, it was a good idea I think, was to have the campground run by the concessionaire. But part of the problems was that the concessionaire was kind of an obstinate chap, putting it mildly. The biggest problem was that he was an alcoholic. That was a real tough problem, but when he was drunk he was as sharp as most people when they are sober. When he was sober he was devastating.

Peyton paid his political dues and expected results and got them. He was a friend of several other men and political figures. To say he was awkward to deal with is probably an understatement, but he and I had mutual respect. I just flat told him he was and I just wouldn’t talk to him after 10:00 o’clock in the morning.

Did you get to see him very often? Was he in the park a lot?

He was there all the time. I’m talking about the season now.

The season—summer?

Yes, he would be there for five months: pre-and post-season, but his office was in Portland. I’d meet him up there on occasion and we got along fine socially.

Did you deal with Jim Griffin very often?

Yeah. Gosh, I’d have forgotten about Jim. Jim was more of a silent partner, a very nice fella. Both of the wives were involved too, both Jim’s wife and Mrs. Peyton.

I know that was his nickname. They called him Silent Jim, with Peyton being the front man.

Well, there was part of the financing was changed, oh goodness I can’t think of this other fella’s name; it was a banker in Portland. At any rate, there was money needed when we got into approving the concession contract. We got into this sprinkler system because that building was a fire trap, if I ever saw one. It was horrible. The concession people in Washington managed the concession contracts in those days, naturally they would send it out and you would take it to get signed. That is the way that it worked, but you had input into what would be in the contract.

So there was some park level input?

Oh, yes, very definitely. But of course it was colored by the factors that you live with there, as well as the political realities that you have to live with.

Did you think that the team was unusual, being thirty years?

It was pretty much standard in those days. I did another one at Oregon Caves, I think it was the same length, I’m not sure. That phase of it we had no control over. But one of the major bone of contention was this fire system and we flat refused the official contract until it was accomplished, period.

Okay, so you had just gotten there when that happened?

Right, but the first battle we had was over the fire sprinkling system and just absolutely was no question about it, it had to be done. Of course he did it, it was a very expensive proposition in that nasty old building.

Did you view the lodge as eventually being taken down? The sprinkler system was a temporary thing?

Yeah, it was just protection of life is all. Oh, we felt, that is most of us, I don’t know Bill might have some thoughts on that. Where you there on the planning of the master plan?

[Bill] Yeah, the one that you arrived I think this was the second mater plan. My involvement as far as the lodge was concerned was the inspection side of it Marvin [Hershey] and I had to do that.

That was unbelievable, wasn’t it?

[Bill] Yeah, we had many a battle with Ralph [Peyton], he wouldn’t let us go in certain areas and like those top floors, where he had all the employees. That was a death trap up there.

No way they could have gotten out of there.

[Bill] No, there wasn’t anything to get out to— the drop is five stories.

No fire doors.

[Bill] It was always a battle to do anything with him. He just dragged his feet and resisted everything, even if it just was today I am going to be nasty, more nasty than yesterday.

He was a character.

[Bill] A real character.

Somewhere in there, you may or may not be interested, but, later on we will get into the Klamath Falls thing. Paul was taking a lot of heat up there. Of course, when I was there, Peyton and I would just battle it out, you know, a couple of strong characters and you’d just keep swinging. So it was pretty much neutral between us. Neither one of us ever took it personally. Paul couldn’t leave the personal aspect out of it and it really hurt him, unfortunately. So down the line when we established the Klamath Falls office, we needed a Superintendent at Crater Lake. We had one at Lava Beds and we tried to get one at the Oregon Caves, but we never quite made that one. So I offered the job to Paul. He said he would take it except, I said except, that there is no exception; you’re the Superintendent, the whole smear. He said, “Well, I can’t handle Ralph and I don’t want the job.” I said, “Put it in writing.’ He did. I still hear about that, why didn’t you give Paul the job.” I got more flack out of that than anything I ever did.

[Ron] So he just didn’t want to deal with Ralph?

He just couldn’t handle Ralph. He was a damn fine Chief Ranger. He moved on up to Coulee and then to the Seattle Office.

So, at that point Einar Johnson came in?

They picked Einar and moved him up there. Einar was hard headed enough to pretty well deal with it, but I would referee between he and Ralph once in awhile. Einar pretty well did the job.

Had the concession dorm idea been brought up during the time you were there? I know it was started later, well after you left.

It started, I think it was under construction, if I remember right. We lost the battle of moving everything out, as far as the concessionaire goes.

Had the concession dorm idea been brought up during the time you were there? I know it was started later, well after you left.

It started, I think it was under construction, if I remember right. We lost the battle of moving everything out, as far as the concessionaire goes.

I know there was one idea about vacating a lot of Steel Circle for the concessionaire and then moving the Park operation down to Fort Klamath.

Right, that was what we were going to do, but we lost that battle. But I wanted to move the rest of all the houses and the facilities out the valley anyway and move it down to, what was the name of that area?

[Bill] The Panhandle, right at the south entrance.

South yard.

[Bill] That whole section in there.

Well, you had four feet of snow instead of twelve and you know it made a lot of difference. I mean you can live there, really not any strain at that elevation.

[Bill] It was convenient too, people could run to town.

An interesting side light on that is when I ran into Lawrence Merriam (1). He said, “What did you ever do with those houses in Steel Circle?” I said, “Well it is in the master plan to get rid of them and move them south.” He said, “You know, that was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made, was letting those damn houses get built up there.”

He gave his approval in ’61 that allowed it.

That’s what he told me. Of course, he and I had been acquaintances then for ten years or more. Lawrence was a fine gentleman, but he said he sure goofed on that one. I said, “Well, hell, we all goof.” I put this package together to move the sucker out, Hartzog had already said do it, so you know let’s go folks. I don’t remember how long ago it was, but whoever the Superintendent was, sent me a copy of the new master plan. This was the first I had heard that they were not following up, and then they keep the thing where it is. They wanted my comments. Oh man, you know I wrote back and I said I’m sorry I put together a pretty good master plan under the circumstances that I work, I don’t know your circumstances, therefore I have no comment on this plan.

I know there was a master plan done in ’70, about the time you left.

Yeah, it was later than that. I don’t know how many there have been since then, probably five or six.

[Bill] There was one session, remember, when we prepared the back room for the meeting upstairs, and the team was in at that time? That would have been in ’69, because I left shortly thereafter.

That was the first team that I was involved in, well no, we had a team down here in the Redwoods too. I don’t remember the members, but Paul Fritz was on it. So we were running master plan here and also at Crater Lake at almost the same time.

So there were a number of these teams?

There were teams on both of those. Down here [Redwoods] we obviously didn’t involve the public. We didn’t have any legislation yet, but at Crater Lake, Hartzog had just come out, it must have been ’69, with a statement that you would have public involvement. Remember that funny old term? But there was only one problem – the word never got to Denver. Those guys wouldn’t have any public involvement. Well, we had to make a few calls and we got that straightened out. But they wouldn’t even allow the concessionaire to be in the discussion. Well, not too many people wanted Peyton anyway, but we had him.

I read several of Peyton’s letters about various aspects of the planning process.

That was the first real change that I was involved in, where we start what we call public involvement.

Was it because of NEPA, do you think?

I wouldn’t be surprised if either that, or George was just jumping the gun on them, cause he had a tendency to be about two years ahead of everybody else. Boy, he was sharp. He would come up with things, that two years down the line would be legislation. But he was really a forerunner, in many things that was one of them. Of course after that, you know the public was involved in all kinds of stuff, master plans and Wilderness hearings. Superintendent John Preston came up and he was the chairman for that. I don’t know what ever happened to all those documents, whether they were ever implemented or not.

I think the ones at Crater Lake started in ’70 and then they had some recommendations in ’74.

Well, that is about all I can think of, unless you have something…

I was wondering about FOST. Did that have any immediate effects once they came out in ’69?

Without going back through all my notes, which I did not do, I really don’t have a very good feeling of when FOST came in. The I&RM concept was a spin off of that. Paul [Larson] was Chief of I&RM. They had one down, I forget who replaced Einar now, down at Lava Beds, we set up an I&RM there.

[Bill] Ben Ladd was there just before I went there. He was there in the late seventies or early seventies.

Then he went off to John Day after that.

I don’t think the staff, nor I, was ever really convinced that the I&RM concept was really valid. I know the staff didn’t care much for it, I wasn’t convinced either that was the best way to go about it. The problem was, you had a few Rangers that could do Naturalist work and Naturalists could do Ranger work, but we found they didn’t work that way. Their backgrounds were so diametrically different that they really didn’t mix well. Now there are exceptions, when you have a particularly adaptable ranger, any of the rangers, or the same thing on interpretation or history or whatever it is. Some people are adaptable, but there are not many that are. The interpreter likes to zero in on interpretation and the history folks do the same thing in their specialty. But all of a sudden we started to have law enforcement problems and then the rangers became highly specialized, somewhat detrimental, I thought, because they go out of the main stream of management and specialized.

Was that really after the aftermath of the Yosemite riots?

When Patrick was killed at Point Reyes I think that was the shoe that dropped, from that point on send the rangers to Glencoe (Georgia) and get with it.

[Bill] There was a poaching incident, was it not, at Point Reyes?

Yes, Patrick was a ranger, I don’t know if he was a District Ranger or not he stopped the car and they killed him.

Sort of like this situation with Gulf Islands, not long ago. Yes.

[Bill] Well, he knew these people, Patrick knew these people and that’s probably why they did it. See, the guy at Gulf Islands didn’t know who he was stopping.

I think it was a little over reaction, but the thing that bothers me is that, the rangers become so specialized that they would not be getting experience in management that they needed. Therefore, their opportunities for advancement were becoming highly restricted so that’s when you start seeing all different types of people come and shoe up at the Superintendent’s level and in the regional level. Highly specialized people in the region would be coming out into the field area and they did not know diddle about park management or managing people. They are specialists, see, and you really have to be, if I can use the term a jack of all trades to be any good as a manager.

[Bill] This was what I was referring to yesterday when I told you there is almost a line between the old rangers and the new rangers. There is a phase in period, but the line becomes more and more distinct when you deal with each individual. The newer version is specialization, I’m a cop, I’m an interpreter, I’m a resource management specialist where as before we did everything. That meant plow the roads or fix the— whatever you had to do you didit.

After a short break we are picking up with again Part 1 of the oral history interview. In some of the questions I asked when we talked about the concession development and the headquarters move at Crater Lake in the late sixties we mentioned the campground. There was an idea to have a trailer park on the other side of the road. Was that ever a very serious concern, something, I assume, Ralph Peyton was pushing in addition to the Mazama Campground?

Well, the Mazama Campground spread across the road when I was first there. I am sure it was when you were there, Bill. It was on both sides of the road, and it was really getting beat down pretty bad so we closed that and let it go through a restoration process. Which, as you know, at Crater Lake is a lengthy, lengthy time. I did not feel that we should reopen it. Recognizing of course, that we were just starting to see in those days motorhomes, nothing like you have today. But we were starting to see trailers. There was a lot of thought on that from a planning standpoint, but it didn’t lend itself to the topography that we had a t Crater Lake, without tearing it up. I remember the first time I went through Crater Lake with Director Hartzog. I picked him up at Klamath Falls and he wanted to go to the park and see Mr. Peyton for whatever purpose. Driving up, we came to this park entrance and this big road with a clearing on the side, it was like a freeway, from the road we had just come off? He said, “What is this?” I said, “This is the park entrance.” He literally went through the roof. He chewed me from that entrance all the way to the park headquarters, about why did I let that road get built like that. He wouldn’t let me say boo; he kept chomping on his cigar and going good. I said, “Well, when you get back to Washington, why don’t you go down and talk to Lenny Volz? He’s the one that signed the contract and built the road.” He said, “That is no excuse, you are the Park Superintendent and you are responsible.” But he was very sensitive that the road should lay on the surface of the land with minimal disturbance, none of this big shoulder stuff. Of course, you could arguer at Crater Lake all you wanted to about 12 feet of snow and 500 accumulated inches a year and people don’t believe it. Even the engineers who come up and built the house didn’t believe it, you know snow gets pretty heavy when it is 10 feet deep.

[Ron] Well, just consider how much money you spent on fuel to remove it in terms of snow removal equipment?

When I was there, and this is a long time back now, we are talking twenty-five years ago. We programmed a hundred to a hundred and twenty-five thousand a year, just for snow removal. I don’t have any idea what it is now?

The park budge is about two million and we estimate one sixth is involved with snow removal, some three hundred thousand.

I wouldn’t doubt it at all. It is a very expensive job, but it has to be done. See, if we could have moved this stuff down out of there, literally we could have left it closed. Probably not feasible, but I always thought it was the most beautiful place in the world in the winter time. Gosh, that rim was fantastic.

[Ron] It was certainly a very heavenly landscape.

I’ve seen a drawing dated about ’71 for a camper services building. Was that something that was part of the contract, as was the gas station?

Yeah, well, it was cleaning up the operation more than anything. You needed facilities for campers; we were beginning to get a lot of them. As for safety, that old station wasn’t too good. It wasn’t anything special, it was just something you plug in.

You asked a question about history of the building. Did we consider them as historic? To some degree; we did the Assistant Superintendent’s house that was the second one down. It was never really utilized except during the summer months.

Did you live in the one at the top of the hill?

Yes, it was a very nice place, but terribly expensive to maintain. I suppose they are not using that now, are they?

It is used for seasonals and became a National Historic Landmark.

[Bill] The older stone buildings, right?

The one thing that I recall we were going to do was demolish the old Annie Spring station. It was down by the campground and we were not using it. I figured we better get rid of it. Somehow or other, the historians got word that we were contemplating getting rid of the Annie Springs station. Is that still there?

It was demolished in ’87.

It was, I mean it was pathetic.

[Bill] Yeah, it was used for a dorm for awhile. Wasn’t much, it looked more like a tool shack than anything else.

That was the only thing that I recalled that came up.

There was a memo, I think right after you left, that Einar Johnson signed that there was some cyclic maintenance money offered for historic structures. Einar wrote back that we hadn’t any historic buildings, even thought the lodge qualified from the fifty year rule. So it was his perception they weren’t?

Right, we were very much aware the lodge at Oregon Caves definitely was a historic structure of some magnitude, beautiful old place.

I wanted to ask you about the Caves. Did you get much time there?

Whenever there was a problem we would go over. We kept quite an involvement with them, partially due to the isolation of it, but again I would come over for staff meetings and budget meetings.

The staff was numbered five?

Usually three to five. I assume it is the same as the concessionaire ran the guide service. We went through a planning process there, and wanted to have a holding area at the bottom of the hill…

Okay, I was going to ask you about that.

A signaling system so that we knew when the parking lot was filled; it would automatically change.

Was the shuttle idea…?

I don’t recall us talking about shuttle, I think we were talking more of controlling the access.

[Bill] Well, we did talk about the shuttle a little bit because we kept trying to figure out whether we should give a program on the bus on the way up there. The bus would have a little video screen or something or other and the interpreter would talk to them on the way up, but that was just one of the considerations.

That’s right, I remember now the video screen thing came up when we had our conference in Great Smokies and they put us on buses. They had one of these screens up there while we went up over the Smokies. It was like a VCR-type thing; the guy plugged us in and gave us the tour while we went over the hill; it was great. I have never seen it done in the park anywhere else.

[Bill] no, I hadn’t either. They did have the same thing when I was out in Orlando when we went out to Kennedy. They had three screens one at the front, one at the left side for the middle group, and one at the right side at the rear for the people in the back. The guide just said and now we have a thirty minute orientation tape and he plugged it in.

I think it is a great idea.

[Bill] It was good because you knew a lot before you got there. Then he put a movie on for the rest of the drive.

Yeah, I had forgotten that one, you are right.

I’ve heard some reference to it the concession operations, was there any linkage between the Caves Company and Peyton?

No, absolutely none.

They were completely independent?

The Caves Company was run by a Board of Directors. Harry Christensen was the manager, the Board ran it, totally independent.

Later on, they both sold out to Canteen Company of Oregon.

Where you might have ran into that, gosh, I can’t remember the chaps name. I ran into him when I was in Death Valley the last time—wanted to buy both. I guess it was Canteen Corporation, and so he was bidding on them both simultaneously. But there never was connection while I was there, or not as long as Harry was there, either. That was a good little operation at Oregon Caves.

I had another question about at the time that the Office of Natural Sciences was created in ’67. Dick Brown became the Research Biologist. Did that change anything in the park, in that you now somebody with a research grade?

Well, it did not at that time, predominately because of personality, I would guess. We arranged for a transfer and about the same time that occurred, we were setting up the Klamath Falls group office. We set the position in the group office. What was his name?

Blaisdell?

Jim Blaisdell, right. He was kind of a dynamic character, anyway, and he was interested in where we were putting in the big horn sheep in Lava Beds. That was his major thrust, which was a full time occupation, but he also did work at Crater Lake and at Oregon Caves.

I guess that might make a good transition to this setting up of the group office and the regional office while you were superintendent. That seems like it would change things enormously as far as how the operation would run.

Not really, I knew a year or so ahead that this was going to come to fruition. Senator Jackson, who is now deceased, and the Regional Director were close associates. Senator Jackson wanted a presence in Seattle. After all, he was from the great state of Washington. In order to do that, they would have to split up the Western Region, which is pretty traumatic. George had some objections to it, but those were resolved when the North Cascades and the Redwoods came in. The Seattle Office was set up to handle Oregon and all the Alaska areas, Washington and Idaho. So this was to me just a normal transition. It was a shock at the park level because we pulled out ten people—myself included, and set up the group office, which changed the financial structure and staffing and so forth.

Was the group office and the Seattle office just coincidental as far as the timing of both of them?

No, it was planned that way. We added Lava Beds to it which caused some consternation, because it was in a different Congressional District, but we worked that out okay. So it wasn’t any strain really, just a logical solution. Then the local Congressmen at that time, was Al Ullman. To get your reference straight, Al Ullman was a number two man in the Ways and Means Committee. Ullman became the head of that when Fanny and Wilbur [Mills] fell in the pool on the Potomac. The interesting aspect was that Al Ullman was from John Day, Oregon. He said, “I would like you to have a look at this place.” And I said, “Yes sir.” So we had a look at it. We ended up writing a plan for John Day and it eventually became the fourth area to be managed by the group office.

Was it your recommendation that it have three separate units?

Oh, yes. There was no way that you could tie that thing together, short of taking the whole river. In those days we didn’t thin quite that broadly. The only other aspect of it that I wanted was the old Chinese store. That was in downtown John Day, but I couldn’t get it then. It was fascinating; did you ever see that?

Yeah, the Kam Wah Chung?

Yeah, I wanted that real bad. Ullman said he couldn’t do that.

Was it simply just a transfer from the State Parks to the NPS?

Yeah.

Okay, there wasn’t anybody else involved as far as private owners?

Oh, yeah there was some private acquisition, but it was not a major deal.

BLM wasn’t involved?

Not that I recall. See, at that time, we also we had a Portland office. The Portland office had a planning function, but again you run into, well let’s say, personnel problems.

Was the Portland office only an NPS office or was it shared with other agencies?

It was a separate entity, but I think it was in the BLM building.

On the east side, near the Lloyd Center?

Yeah, right. But that office phased out.

Would that have been the old engineering office? I know the Park Service had its engineering headquarters in Portland in the thirties.

I think they did have some, yeah. Because Clyde was a thirteen, which is a astronomical grade, in those days. That was probably ’51 or ’52, and he took two rangers down there with him. I don’t know what the heck they did.

Where was the office in Medford?

In the Federal Building.

The old brick Federal Building.

Yeah, the old brick Federal Building. We were on the first floor of that.

Where did you live in Medford, when you had to stay over?

I don’t remember, there was not a government house.

There was not a government house?

No, we just rented, what would you call that a condo today I guess, something like that. I knew we weren’t going to be there for two years.

In Klamath Falls, did you have to rent something locally?

The office, you mean?

Yes.

Yeah, we went through GSA and we found this one building and had them build it to our specifications, the internal part of it.

[Ron] Do you recall the Rockefeller Forest and the Blue Creek Flat incident with the ’64 logs, I mean that came into play in terms of logged over land at Redwood Creek?

Yeah, it had a lot of importance to in the creation of the Redwood operation.

[Ron] Did Director Hartzog have any preference on specific areas to be included?

Well, the tall trees obviously.

[Ron] So politically the tallest tree…?

That was the issue.

[Ron] The tallest tree?

Then we got into, like you do when you are planning, you kind a roll around and pick up ideas wherever you can get them. One of the ideas that I liked and finally came to fruition was let’s buy some coastal land. They didn’t want coast land, we are talking about Redwoods, so that coast is cheap. Well, then they come up and lets buy all the coast land. You know they go from nothing to…

So nobody was really tying what happened at Olympic to this situation?

No. Park creation, or ‘Park Genesis,” as some of us used to call it, is one of a kind. You get fertile minds together and let them go and then you pick and chose the stuff. Then the political realities come to play and your long range plans.

[Ron] The tallest tree issue became very critical?

That was the issue.

[Ron] When Rudy Becking came up with his tallest tree, but not reviewing the long term plan?

That nasty old man. Dr. Becking, is a really nice guy but he is always finding another tall tree somewhere. So we had the one from Rudy and I came down and hired a survey team, they had to be first level supervised surveyors, which is the top of the line. We had to hike in from the top of Bald Hills Road all the way down. Were you on that expedition?

[Ron] Not on that particular one, I was on the early one along with Rudy when he claimed to have located the tallest; actually he said the longest.

Boy, that is tough going down that old trail.

[Ron] Then he kept it confidential for well over a year. So, this example you are giving is a confirmation of the Becking tree?

Right, we accepted what he said, just go measure it, so that is what we did. All kind of funny things happened. I was very pleased we got the coastline as part of it. We were talking with the Director before this one, on the development of Redwoods.

[Ron] In the development?

The last Director?

The last Director—Mott?

Bill Mott at that time was head of the California State Park system. While we were friends, we were bitter enemies in so far as the transfer of parks go. He was very opposed to it, but he did agree that it would be a good idea to get some coastline while we could. Well, that tied in with the same thing, that was on going, the east coast where they made a survey of all the Shorelines in the United States. When they came up here we just plugged that piece in, see. So that slipped into legislation almost by default. But it was consistent with what the parks were doing.

[Ron] But originally that was not part of the idea to include the actual coastline?

No. The second most important thing other than the tall trees was to have a viable ecological unit, a watershed and we wanted Mill Creek. To this day, the Save-the-Redwood League still thinks that should be part of the park, but it was not possible to work that out.

Politically, or just through the ownership?

Both. Actually that is the only viable mill left in Del Norte County, isn’t it?

[Bill] Which one?

Rellim?

[Bill] Actually Miller is shut down.

At that time the watershed was worth saving. There is nothing left of it now, I am sure.

[Bill] Pretty well stripped out now.

That was all post 1970 that it was stripped out?

Right, it was still viable in ’68, when the legislation passed.

Okay, I know the League was very much adamant….

Yeah, they still are. The last time I talked with them which was six, seven years ago now, they were still that way.

[Ron] Did you seriously consider the whole of Redwoods area for a National Park?

We considered it, but not for….

[Ron] Not for any length of time?

Not for any length of time, no. There were a number of other places, some of this Headwaters stuff they talk about now, some of that was very nice. One of the offers, there is always offers and counter offers, in this type of thing when you are dealing with these things. One of the timber companies, I don’t remember which one it was, wanted to swap that for something else up here and then we would have a detached unit miles away. Which is all right, but we rather decided it be best to keep it together.

[Ron] Did you have any dealings with the Forest Service over the Yurok Forest?

No, the dealings with Forest Service that we had, Ed Cliff was involved in that, I think. It was what they called a purchase unit and that became part of the exchange that ultimately transpired.

Ed Cliff was in what capacity at that point, was he…?

He was at that time head of BOR.

Okay, so he had been Chief of the Forest Service at one time, but now gone on to BOR?

Right, remember now, when the legislation creating BOR was set up, they were the planning agency for recreation in the United States. They had their input into what was going on so far as creating parks go.

[Ron] So that was their connection for surveying the boundary?

Right, worked good. They did some very good work. Of course at my level you work the whole spectrum, but working here I worked predominately with the timer companies and the Forest Service. BLM was not an actor at that stage of the game, we really didn’t have anything involving them. Subsequently there was, but not at that stage of it.

When you were doing these studies you were really looking at what was possible and then what it cost?

Well, the cost actually never really became a facto of any magnitude, planning was, we really didn’t consider that.

There already was a commitment that there would be a Redwood National Park?

Right, the question was that, were we going to use and then you got into the cost. I never had anything to do with that aspect, that came right at the tail end, just before they plugged in the legislation. I don’t really recall who did that, do you Bill?

[Bill] The coast stuff?

Yeah, the land cost, the lands division is entirely separate that is where the BLM came in.

[Bill] I know they counted and marked every tree, they still have a number on every tree and stump, it’s the only park in the system that you can say we have this many trees.

That really didn’t come much into form until late in ’68. I really didn’t have anything to do with that.

So, you are really looking at what the impact, what type of an operation it would be?

Right, what facilities you would have, where and staffing, and of course you put together a park budget, operating budget, staffing and all that.

You were always very conscious of this, it is always brought up where the park is and its identity relative to the State Parks. Was this going to be a problems?

Well, yeah you really did two plans and programs until Reagan said no. You did one with the park as we envisioned it and then one without the state operation. So you had two simultaneous programs, but that is pretty simple stuff to put together, when you have done a couple of them they really aren’t that difficult. It is an educated guess, but after all, you are educated, so you do that.

Were the parks studies done with the idea that Crescent City would be the headquarters?

Yes.

So that was an early decision?

That was a given very early on. We were starting to get a little bit of flack from down in this [Humboldt County] area. So we decided that we would have a group district operation in Orick. This was very early in the game when we decided to have both of them. Then of course the subsequent legislation ten years later just exemplified the same thing. You had much more activity in there then, than with the staff that is up there now-visitor center and so on. The one thing that I am still arguing for is to make the park accessible to the people, you know. Well, we are getting it done now. It is about time….

[Bill] Yeah, there was kind of a lock up philosophy, at one time, just shut everything down.

That is one of the unfortunate aspects of the environmental movement. I guess we are all environmentalists; we could be called that at any rate. But, practically, the park are for people and there has to be an access for them. And yet, many of them are stringent environmentalists and don’t want any access other than by foot. When you talk about percentages and use and so forth, that will not float. Around here you have to have a road going right up the main highway and you should have access for people.

Did you have to deal with people like [David] Brower during the study period?

Yes, but not much with Dave, Mike Lamb, gosh I can’t remember the other guy’s name that used to be here, became Director of the Sierra Club and subsequently an attorney, dealt a lot with him (2). We were not close, although we conferred with each other, passed information back and forth.

Were you closer, as far as talking to the League during this time?

No very much. We pretty well had their input and whenever they come up we would meet with them, but by then things were pretty well crystallized.

I know several of the League members had talked about this idea of the Smith River and how that was a viable thing until the Sierra Club backing of Redwood Creek. Did that ever enter into the studies at the time you were involved?

We considered the Smith River yeah, but it was ruled out very early on. During the time I was here, Lenny Volz [who had been key man for Redwood] might have had a lot more involvement at that, but I didn’t. It was pretty well ruled out, we all liked it. It just wasn’t feasible.

The tallest tree became the very prominent political issue?

Right. To go back a little bit as I was saying, we had these four people involved, political people, and each one wanted something. Jackson wanted the Cascades, Aspinall wanted some stuff from Denver, and Ray Taylor wanted some stuff on the Blue Ridge Parkway; all those legislators has a vested interest and the key to the whole thing was the Redwoods. The local Congressman, Don Clausen, was opposed to it. Well, he had to be in order to survive around here. So they brought out the full Interior Internal Affairs National Parks Committee, twenty-one members, which was the only time they ever met outside of Washington. We had quite a fandangle with them, didn’t we Bill?

[Much laughter]

[Ron] What year would that have been?

Probably ’67. A lot happened in ’67! It was a very busy year. We had to have a separate car for each Congressman. Actually the number one car was for the Chairman, Mr. Chairman. We were doing great until all of a sudden somebody called and said oh, by the way, those have to be air conditioned cars. Well, you know what there aren’t any air conditioned cars around here. So we had them coming in from Portland, San Francisco, etc. We had rangers for drivers from all over.

[Bill] I was glad they were air conditioned because they kept the dust out.

You know you plan all this stuff out and drive it and time it, and what you are going to do and say and all this stuff. It is kind of involved and then all of a sudden the Chairman says, “What’s up that road?”

[Bill] It all goes to hell.

Off you go, well there are twenty-one more cars going up that road, dirt, dust, oh gosh.

[Bill] I was amazed we didn’t lose somebody over the side because there was so much dust you would come to a turn and you may not see the turn you had to stay back far enough so that you could see what you were doing. The dust would just fall off the car.

Somewhere along in there, I forget just what year it was, Lady Bird Johnson came out. Was that in ’68? Any rate it was prior to the time of the legislation, I think.

That was going to be my next question, how did Lady Bird get involved in all this?

Well, I don’t know just how or what transpired in Washington, but Lady Bird came out with her group. Nash Castro was working in the White House at the time, a former Park Director, and they flew out and we had quite a party.

George Hartzog was here and we had one bus full of press people. Prior to that, this representative from Washington and I pick out the spot with Lady Bird Johnson. We had three alternatives and she liked that one.

[Ron] So, Lady Bird actually selected that site?

Oh yeah, we showed her three sties.

[Ron] What were the other two?

One was up Redwood Creek from Orick about, well there was an old road up in there, and we used to be able to drive up where that trail is now. We went up there about three miles and it was on the left, a beautiful spot. The other one was in a State Park.

[Bill] The Stout Grove?

Yeah, the Stout Grove, but that got ruled out real quick, because it was the state.

[Bill] I can see why, the state wouldn’t go for it.

But she liked the spot that was used, she really liked that. Then of course later, Bill and Ryan and a bunch of other folks came down for the dedication when President Nixon and President Johnson were here. That was fun.

[Bill] The three musketeers.

[Ron] That was certainly a unique moment in Redwoods history. Bill Everhart thinks that is the only example of three presidents participating in a dedication, of course Reagan was Governor at that time.

Yeah, it was strictly for Lady Bird, was what it was for. She’s a marvelous lady and a most gracious woman.

[Bill] She was a very charming woman.

I was lucky enough to see her a couple of the times after that down at her home in Texas. I was working on the Buffalo River in Arkansas and we had a conference down in Austin and she invited us to come down and see her, the ranch and where LBJ was buried and the whole bit, a delightful lady.

Now in your leaving Crater Lake, Buffalo River was next?

Yeah, I went to Buffalo, it was a new area. I picked that up, when the Redwoods legislation was signed. Nels Murdock came in as Superintendent. Down at Buffalo River in Arkansas, I picked it up from the day the authorizing legislation passed to put that package together. So we bought the land, assembled staff, plans and all the tings that you go through putting a park together.

So really a continuation of setting up a park?

Yeah, another piece of the action. That was deliberate, Hartzog said, “Are you getting tired of sailing out there at Klamath Lake?” I said I never get tired of sailing. He said, “Well, get a canoe cause you are going to Buffalo.” I had never hared of Buffalo either, but you get rather insulated when you are working these things, tremendous concentration of hours and hours. So I never heard of Buffalo River in Arkansas. We started from scratch to put that one together.

Now, how long did that assignment last?

Four years.

Four years, so you were there after Hartzog was fired?

From there they were having a problem in Death Valley, where I had been years ago, in mining, so the Director asked me if I’d go down and write a report At any rate, that assignment lasted almost three years. After completing a report to Congress on the mining in the parks, I moved to San Francisco.

So, what year did you finish at Death Valley?

I would guess ’79, approximately. I was Chief of Operations Evaluations at Region, and ended up being Associate Regional Director for Administration for awhile. I’m not that type, but a very interesting assignment. Regions are run generally by a squad of key people and evaluations were truly a management evaluation and then some criminal investigation also.

How many Associate Regional Directors were there when you were there?

Five.

Five, okay, and there was a Deputy Regional Director?

We had a Deputy and we abolished that position and moved him out. The position really wasn’t needed, but they reinstated it again. Depends on the operation of the manager. The way it was we didn’t need him. You have to make staffing cuts at times; they are hard to do. Funny how the ball goes round in circles. BOR, Bureau of Outdoor Recreation, was changed to a different name, what was the last name?

Heritage Conservation and Recreation Service.

Right, we had a new Secretary of Interior and he decided that the organization was going to be abolished. The Park Service was going to absorb that staff. That was one of the jobs that I had to do was to fit that staff within our organization. Every region had to pick up so many. We had to pick up forty people

Was it from their regional office or did they have sort of a pool you had to pick from?

They had regional offices, almost the same as the Park Service did. In fact their office was in the same building we were in, and that created a very interesting situation .

I know there was a difference as far as absorbing high graded people.

Right, they had five or six Deputy Directors. Their secretaries were all to grades higher than we had. The lower levels abandoned ship before the transfer actually took place. It was kind of funny seeing them come back in the organization that I almost went in, twenty years before doing the same type thing, which is fascinating. All that has a long term effect on the National Park Service, that many people in each regional office; it varied of, course. But you plug the Superintendent now at Golden Gate in as a fairly young fella. I don’t say there is anything wrong with him at all. But again, this is a position and there are a whole series of them filled by employees of the other agency that the Park Service existing staff were not able to compete for; this is difficult.

That kind of wraps up where I have been. I have enjoyed coming up to Redwoods, we had a few things to get squared around and it didn’t take long to do that, nice place to work. Occasionally you run into some people that you worked with previously like these two characters [Bill Donati and Ron Mastrogiuseppe] and you get to see them and enjoy them again. I had a Chief Ranger once three different times, Dick Rayner, I selected him one time and the other two times I moved in the job and he was already there. So it’s kinda fun when you do that.

[Bill] Kinda points out that it is a relatively small organization.

It really is.

I know that Howard Baker, going back to an earlier reference, published something about the family tree of the National Park Service.

Well, he was a great man to work for I’ll tell you.

Yeah, he still lives in Omaha. I have written to him a couple of times.

Right. Did you ever work in Omaha?

No, I was there once when I was a kid.

I don’t know where he was prior to being Regional Director there, seemed like he’d been there forever, you know.

He took over for Lawrence Merriam.

Right, and he stayed there till Hartzog was in Washington for a year or two. Then he had Howard come back to Washington for awhile. He was Director of Operations, he stayed there until he was about ready to retire. Then he moved back to Omaha for about a year, or something like that. A real fine guy. Some of those things like I was telling about how the system works in those days, that’s the way it was, you know. There was no such thing as you wanting to apply for a job; there was no way to apply for a job. There was no system to go into, like there is today. I remember when, oh gosh, it was probably around mid-sixties when an avenue was set up where you could apply for a job.

So that was really the first time?

Yeah, there wasn’t any way previously. You know somebody, it was a family group, and it is, course it is much larger now than it was then. There was no avenue, you couldn’t put anything on the floor, because you never knew there was a vacancy. The only news you had was the Courier, put together by Tiny Semingsen in ’54 or ’55, when he was Superintendent of Wind Cave. I didn’t know that until I moved to Rushmore. He was the guy that had all this stuff about people moving; that’s the only way we knew anything.

So, there was no other way, noting official?

There was nothing.

There was just official conferences like the Chief Ranger Conference and the Superintendents Conference?

There was one Chief Ranger Conference in my time, that was held in Washington in probably ’56; now wait a minute, it would have been ’59 or ’60. That is the only one I know was held, now there may have been one other after that I missed.

There were several planning conferences for Mission ’66?

Oh yes, there were a lot of that, but the Chief Ranger/ Superintendents Conferences used to be held annually that was changed to, course they get pretty expensive. Then they started going to zone conferences, regional conferences and gosh, you got six regions and that kinda wears everybody out.

Were there official training courses, like there are now?

I went to one that was called Tolsen Tech in 1955, held in San Francisco. It was held ever other year, once in the east and once in the west, and Ranges, as far as I know it was just Rangers, were selected to go to that. They have about forty of them. That was the only training program in the National Park Service.

Why was it named after Hillory Tolson?

Hillory taught it. He and Lee Ramsdale. Lee Ramsdale was a Personnel Officer; nobody really knew just what he did. They held that east and west and Tolsen brought in outsides speakers like Dave Brower and other conservation groups. They had financial people and personnel, you would go right through the regional office and pick every function and whoever the Chief was would present that information, it was a week course. Then the next thing was a year or two after that when they started that Yosemite School. That of course went on the Grand Canyon afterwards. That was the only thing that was available.

So, a lot of the lower echelon people really never saw any training?

No. If there was any, I don’t know if there was or not. We had fire schools, every spring.

Usually in the parks?

They were put on by one of the parks. Further south in California, Yosemite is where you would go, up here and in thru the Pacific Northwest it was Rainier. Whatever the ones that Great Smokies had, they had a fire staff and we would send one or two from the park to those every year. That’s all there was. Now-a-days it’s something else. But you have to have it to keep up today. Did you ever add how many training programs you have been to, Bill?

[Bill] I don’t even want to think about it, or how many cards I have to recertify, or how many refresher course I have to go to; I don’t have time to work.

Footnotes:

1) Regional Director from 1950-1963.

2) Michael McCloskey.

Other pages in this section